Why do I have a feeling that the boys will chime in on this situation. I want to see Aster and Vee talk privately at some point. And while it’s true that one day can’t mend years of hardship, it’s something. At least it’s out in the air.
Actually, team Ivy inviting Verbena to talk about Vera, could be good, maybe, now that it’s out in the open. When I picture Aster pulling Verbena aside to talk in private, I imagine it seeming patronizing.
I think they need to talk about how best to deal with their mum. She’s making things difficult for them, and once they cut ties with their mum, they would be able to have a good time together without her interfering.
I agree, except I would rather that they bring all the hostility out into the sun light and say we love you mom, but we can’t keep going on like this. We have to and we will have some independence, as we are adults. And maybe they could talk about what the worry is that makes Vera want Verbena to spy on Ivy
If it turns out that Vera would cause problems about touching, that would complicate things. Sometimes people won’t allow you to be honest with them.
Sorry Ivy, I’m siding with Vee. Yeah, sure, she’s aggressive physically but Ivy keeps not giving her any chances to just be herself and is always aggressive emotionally towards Vee. She all but confessed that she has no life other than doing what their mother wants but she doesn’t care. Ivy needs to stop focusing on how bad it is for her and notice how bad it is for her sister too.
“Yeah, sure, she’s aggressive physically but Ivy keeps not giving her any chances to just be herself”, okay, first things first. Ver is not “being herself” here, she is trying to please her mother by spying her sister. Being “herself” could have been when they were together shopping, just spending a rare time without fighting because they managed to get their mother (the main source of their fights) out of their relationship for once, not letting her words reach them. But every other time we saw them both was Verbena trying to bother Ivy. And that fling Ver had with Holly was intentional, also the invitation to dinner, AND thowing drinks to Holly’s face when he told her he wasn’t interested anymore.
Second, like Ivy said, one good evening together wont change YEARS of fights, resentment, mistrust, jealousy (from Verbena’s part), and several frustrating attempts of reaching out without success. Verbena is well aware how Ivy feels about their mother’s favoritism, and, well, their mother herself in general. But she is not good at dealing with her feelings, or dealing with messes that she caused. She genuinely wants to make amends with Ivy, but she will need time, patience and make A BETTER EFFORT to be better (she’s still doing bad things; stalking and lashing at others when things dont go her way), because otherwise, Ivy wont let her get close. And from Ivy’s perspective, Verbena used some “bonding time” to get closer and get a chance to get something out of her.
Thirdly, Ivy (and everybody) has the right to not forgive someone if they show no sign of changing behaviour that’s hurting one or both of the individuals in a relationship, wheter they are relatives or not.
I have a strained relationship with my sister as well, and let me tell you, things can be messy and complicated. Every case is unique, of course, and everyone has different experiences or differents approaches. The best thing you can do is try to be better and build trust with care and love.
You seem to focus only on Ivy, like Ivy does, and not focus on anything that happens to Vee. Vee did want Holly, annoying Ivy was just a plus. It wasn’t her primary goal, just a pleasant one (for her only). And just because they had one good afternoon, why does Ivy act like she’s a horrible person all over again. Vee didn’t even ask about this stuff first, she was being happy drunk. If Ivy was as perfect of an angel as you seem to think she is, why didn’t she just straight out say “This is my night out with my partners. You wanna talk later, do it later.” Sure, Ivy’s been abused by all this, but so has Vee.
And for the final thing: I NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD FORGIVE HER. And I’m quite annoyed everyone seems to think that’s what I was saying. Clearly Ivy was allowing a chance for forgiveness by HANGING OUT WITH HER ALL AFTERNOON. She was being nice, smiling, actually enjoying herself, and when Vee shows up again, it’s like it never happened and Ivy’s back to being a jerk to her like everyone else expects her to be. To me, the whole afternoon is an attempt that yeah, I’d like to repair my relationship with you, and was mutual on both accounts. If Ivy didn’t want to try, she shouldn’t be giving her false hope like that. I don’t expect to change yours, or anyone’s mind, but don’t pull all this “But Ivy was so abused, she doesn’t have to take dealing with Verbena” when Verbena was abused too. You can’t point out one persons abuse just to ignore anothers.
I was just giving my opinion and giving a possible perspective on Ivy’s side, that’s all, I never said she was a saint or that Verbena was an absolute demon. In my eyes, both Ivy and Verbena were abused by their mom, and both sisters hurt each other at some point. I said that Verbena has difficulties expressing her feelings well, and that she may be impatient when things dont go resolved right away (obviously due to the abuse), maybe i should have been more specific. All I have been trying to say is you cant rebuild a long-time strained relationship in one day. I’m not good at explaining myself, I admit it.
We both have different opinions; I think Ivy has the right to kick her sister out, you think she is being selfish and that’s fine, agree to disagree. But I would like you not put words in my mouth that I never said, or to answer with anger because I misunderstood your first message.
Vee is being abused by their mother. Ivy is being abused by their mother AND VEE. Vee is a willing instrument of their mother’s abuse. Vee FOLLOWED Ivy to this vacation spot at their mother’s behest. Vee is reporting back to their mother about Ivy’s movements. Ivy is doing all she can to minimize the power that their mother has over both of them, but Vee keeps following Ivy and enabling their mother. Ivy has shown several times that she will happily embrace Vee so long as Vee is not actively enabling Vera’s bad behavior. Ivy wants their mother to stop playing favorites. Vee wants to be their mother’s the favorite. Their behavior is not comparable.
In my book, “Vee is not being herself here, she is trying to please her mother by spying [on] her sister” is utterly uncalled for since Vee is playing with open cards. She is being herself in spite of having been stuck with something she does not like and that’s pleasant to neither her nor Ivy. And she’s in a position with Vera where turning her down upfront would also have been bad (possibly not as bad as the fix she is in now, but she might have thought differently then). She isn’t even trying to be spying, actually.
A peace offering really needs to be sustained, I think. It’s normal that emotions are not expressed rationally.
They didn’t talk about the difficult problems between them on that very pleasant day. Now they are talking about it and of course they are going to still be upset, if these problems go back far.
Hopefully now the issues are present in their minds and they could do better next time.
I agree that Aster and Vee talking would probably be useful.
IMO Vee was trying to offer a peace offering, albeit not a very good one. “Give me something to tell mom and I’ll be out of your hair.” She’s also very clearly drunk so smart thinking ain’t gonna be a top thing on her mind.
Funny, I’m looking at it as the exact opposite. From Verbena’s POV, Ivy is the perfect child, the one who’s always had mom’s approval/attention/love – and she’s the one who cannot see past her own hurt to realize that being the “favorite” of an emotionally abusive parent is just as bad as being the unfavorite. And she reacts to Ivy telling her flat out “pretty much every time we interact, you do something awful” by… throwing a temper tantrum and doing something awful.
Honestly, I think Verbena would benefit most from having a long talk with Aster instead of Ivy or her mom.
Uh… while I’ve got some sympathy for V, she’s gonna need to tell her mom no and put in some effort managing her temper before I’d side with her over Ivy. Fixing a long running wound like this requires time and patience to build trust and she doesn’t appear to have the emotional stamina for that at the moment. Violently rage quitting is clearly a very established pattern for her and unless she’s willing to stand up to her mom and work on letting her feelings out in less destructive ways it doesn’t seem likely to change.
Did you not read the previous 2 strips?
Ivy is out for a pleasant evening with her partners. Vee drunkenly pushes herself in, admits to spying for their mother, and is holding her evening hostage with a “Give me dirt, and I’ll leave.” and you think *Ivy* is the one wrong in this situation?
Neither of them are wrong. And neither of them are right. Their mother is a narcissist and it’s wounded the both of them and pitted them against each other. Ivy can do no wrong in her mother’s eyes. She’s ‘perfect’. But Ivy feels she’s placed on a pedestal and is a prop more than a person when it comes to her mother. And honestly she’s not wrong.
Verbena is the black sheep. She’s not perfect. She’s not the good child. And so Verbena has to work for her mother’s affection. And her mother wants to control and spy on Ivy. And Verbena, having spent her **ENTIRE** life being put in Ivy’s shadows, and craving her mother’s approval, does as she’s told in hopes her mother will love her.
Ivy wants freedom. Verbena just wants love. But their mother just won’t let them be.
And in this moment, neither can see the other’s POV b/c their own is so deadset into one path in hopes of getting what they want. And it puts them at odds.
And I will say, Ivy doesn’t need to forgive, but she does need to come with an understanding of Vee’s actions. That Vee never wanted to be put against Ivy and to spy on her. That her mother forced her to in an attempt to win her mother’s love.
And Vee needs to see that Ivy never asked to be the golden child. It’s not Ivy’s fault that her mother loves Ivy more. And that Ivy never wanted her mother’s favor.
They’re both mad at the wrong person. They need to redirect that anger back at their mother and work on healing their relationship.
Vee is wrong and Ivy isn’t. There are reason why they both act the way they do, but that is not the same not being wrong. Ivy wants privacy in her personal life (reasonable). To try to accomplish this she avoids the her mother and sister, who try to violate her privacy (reasonable). When one of them tries to force their way into a private situation she sets a boundary(reasonable). Vee wants their mother to love her(reasonable) more than she loves Ivy(unreasonable). To try to accomplish this she is willing to violate Ivy privacy(unreasonable and immoral). Ivy setting a reasonable boundary (don’t spy on me) and enforcing that boundary(by not letting Vee sit and listen to private conversations or offering up personal details of her life) hurts Vee’s feelings, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Ivy not trusting her Vee, who just announced that is is, in fact, continuing to report back to Vera on Ivy’s life is not unreasonable or immoral. Ivy is not denying Vera’s love to Vee by holding this boundary, and Ivy is not being unreasonable by shutting Vee out of emotional intimacy so long as she is reporting back to Vera. Given how many times Vee has violated Ivy’s right to privacy, it wouldn’t be wrong or unreasonable if she never spoke to Vee again. No one owes time or love to someone who is enabling abuse against them, even if the enabler is also being abused.
It doesn’t matter, who is right or wrong, I think. Nothing is lost if you allow your loved one to be upset and address what it is they are upset about. Being right and alone is not a good place to be. We would all have to kick ourselves out of our own lives, if we were defined as people, by a time when we were upset.
She should shut Vee out completely for not resisting the pressures of a narcissistic and (let’s be honest) borderline abusive parent? I totally agree Vee’s in the wrong here – but sheesh, I wouldn’t want to get on your bad side!
Her mother is trying to pressure her to spy, but she isn’t forcing her. Verbena is a grown woman. She could do what Abeille did and attempt to disengage from her mother. She could have turned down this ‘free’ vacation.
Abeille got support from Miel and his moms and asked for it, indirectly, by shutting Miel out and trying to do everything herself and blaming herself. Verbena is asking for help and has been doing so, indirectly by her conflicted behavior.
Verbena could have made better choices if she had been ready to, but she wasn’t.
A sister is precious, a friend is precious. If you banish someone because they were wrong or they offended you, you have your pride, I guess, but you no longer have that person. If you banish everyone and are alone with your pride, it’s a miserable existence.
The events that I think of as people having abandoned me, were partly because of me kicking them out of my life because they were upset and I got upset about them being upset.
Thinking about that now, if I won’t forgive people for being upset, I’m committing the same offense of being upset rather than paying attention to what they are upset about. By that logic, I’m wrong and should be banished.
There was a single event that was followed by me losing all of my friends (except a couple) and I n ever recovered. I have my pride, which does nothing for me, and I lost the world.
For the people calling Vee here wrong. I’m going to give you my story. I am the daughter of a narcissist. I have an older sister. My sister was the golden child. I was the black sheep. I was always at odds with my sister because my mom ALSO pitted us against each other.
“Oh Hanna. If you lost weight you’d be the prettier one”- said in front of my sister
“Hanna. Why can’t you be more social like your sister? You should go with her!” – Completely my mother trying to get information on my sister.
I’ve been in Vee’s shoes. And when your narcissist of a mother has made you work for her love from a young age, you’re basically indoctrinated. You don’t know HOW to go against it. So you go against who you can. My sister and I aren’t close. We don’t speak. Our mother poisoned us SO BADLY and pitted us against each other for years. And it wasn’t until I was nearly thirty before I realized I was angry at the wrong person.
My sister still hasn’t realized it. She’s still angry at me.
I still sometimes worry things were my fault when I know fully it wasn’t. And I had to run away to get that realization. But Vee has been so put under her mother’s thumb, so hoping for her love, she stays. And not everyone can see how toxic their situation is when they’re in it. If I did not find my friends, I’d have stayed. I’d never have married, moved out, and found my life.
Now has Vee done some TERRIBLE things? Yes. But in this argument, neither of them are right or wrong. They’re both suffering the effects of their narcissistic mother and that’s what this argument is. It’s them seeing the problem, but not knowing that their mother is the sole person to blame.
Also. Amber. I guarantee you that their Mom offered the vacation, let Vee get excited and start making plans. And then dropped the strings attached.
Honestly her mother is wanting ‘dirt’ on Ivy. Seems more she’s either using her as her personal soap opera, which according to Vee, isn’t a very interesting one-sans needing her eyes replaced that one time- or she’s just extremely controlling and wants to have something to lecture her about the next time she sees her.
I think both of them realize their Mom is the problem, but that’s just it…it’s easier for a sibling to squabble with their peer than it is for the person that’s been their authority figure their whole life. When you disagree with a sibling you’re far more likely to tell them off or fight, but if it’s a parent, who you’ve been conditioned to see as a higher authority and as a source of stability, it’s a lot harder to do that.
Verbena wants to enjoy her vacation as much as Ivy does, but even there she’s not outside her cone on influence because her mother literally paid for it. If the only way she can get her mother to do something nice for her is through the condition of doing her dirty work, I guess she figures she’ll take whatever she can get. Of course, Vera wasn’t really being nice in the first place, she just figured that vacation would be a time her guard would be down and the details of a weekend with two lovers would be super juicy I guess.
It was extremely sad when Vera called and Verbena started telling her about her own day and her mother just shuts her down because she doesn’t care whether Verbena’s enjoying herself or not. To Vee’s credit here, she’s been extremely transparent. She’s trying to show Ivy she just wants to have her sister back, and she’s citing the reason that’s difficult, that she doesn’t ‘get to have plans’ until she has something to bring back to her mother. Clearly both of them feel trapped here. Vera’s influence has trained Ivy to fear interactions with her sister, and it’s trained Verbena to resent Ivy because she wants to have a relationship with her mother, to be able to oh, I don’t know, talk to her mother about her day and to feel like she’s actually invested in the conversation. If it’s coming out of Verbena’s mouth and it doesn’t have to do with Ivy, Vera just brushes it off and that is…ridiculously sad.
I really hope Aster or Holly offer some outside perspective on this because otherwise they are never going to stop fighting and realize the only person they should be confronting is their shitty mom.
It’s possible it’ll turn out she’s an alcoholic. She seems to mostly be a shitty person when drunk and she seems to spend a lot of on screen time drunk.
Not saying any of this behavior is excused or justified but it could be a nice story arc and pretty important.
Why do I have a feeling that the boys will chime in on this situation. I want to see Aster and Vee talk privately at some point. And while it’s true that one day can’t mend years of hardship, it’s something. At least it’s out in the air.
quick reminder – Aster isn’t a boy.
Actually, team Ivy inviting Verbena to talk about Vera, could be good, maybe, now that it’s out in the open. When I picture Aster pulling Verbena aside to talk in private, I imagine it seeming patronizing.
I agree, Aster could be of help as there is no bad blood between zir and Vee yet.
Which can’t be said for Ivy and Holly.
Zatronizing.
Cruelty to robots… Verbena’s expression in panel 2 is great.
I think they need to talk about how best to deal with their mum. She’s making things difficult for them, and once they cut ties with their mum, they would be able to have a good time together without her interfering.
I agree, except I would rather that they bring all the hostility out into the sun light and say we love you mom, but we can’t keep going on like this. We have to and we will have some independence, as we are adults. And maybe they could talk about what the worry is that makes Vera want Verbena to spy on Ivy
If it turns out that Vera would cause problems about touching, that would complicate things. Sometimes people won’t allow you to be honest with them.
Sorry Ivy, I’m siding with Vee. Yeah, sure, she’s aggressive physically but Ivy keeps not giving her any chances to just be herself and is always aggressive emotionally towards Vee. She all but confessed that she has no life other than doing what their mother wants but she doesn’t care. Ivy needs to stop focusing on how bad it is for her and notice how bad it is for her sister too.
“Yeah, sure, she’s aggressive physically but Ivy keeps not giving her any chances to just be herself”, okay, first things first. Ver is not “being herself” here, she is trying to please her mother by spying her sister. Being “herself” could have been when they were together shopping, just spending a rare time without fighting because they managed to get their mother (the main source of their fights) out of their relationship for once, not letting her words reach them. But every other time we saw them both was Verbena trying to bother Ivy. And that fling Ver had with Holly was intentional, also the invitation to dinner, AND thowing drinks to Holly’s face when he told her he wasn’t interested anymore.
Second, like Ivy said, one good evening together wont change YEARS of fights, resentment, mistrust, jealousy (from Verbena’s part), and several frustrating attempts of reaching out without success. Verbena is well aware how Ivy feels about their mother’s favoritism, and, well, their mother herself in general. But she is not good at dealing with her feelings, or dealing with messes that she caused. She genuinely wants to make amends with Ivy, but she will need time, patience and make A BETTER EFFORT to be better (she’s still doing bad things; stalking and lashing at others when things dont go her way), because otherwise, Ivy wont let her get close. And from Ivy’s perspective, Verbena used some “bonding time” to get closer and get a chance to get something out of her.
Thirdly, Ivy (and everybody) has the right to not forgive someone if they show no sign of changing behaviour that’s hurting one or both of the individuals in a relationship, wheter they are relatives or not.
I have a strained relationship with my sister as well, and let me tell you, things can be messy and complicated. Every case is unique, of course, and everyone has different experiences or differents approaches. The best thing you can do is try to be better and build trust with care and love.
You seem to focus only on Ivy, like Ivy does, and not focus on anything that happens to Vee. Vee did want Holly, annoying Ivy was just a plus. It wasn’t her primary goal, just a pleasant one (for her only). And just because they had one good afternoon, why does Ivy act like she’s a horrible person all over again. Vee didn’t even ask about this stuff first, she was being happy drunk. If Ivy was as perfect of an angel as you seem to think she is, why didn’t she just straight out say “This is my night out with my partners. You wanna talk later, do it later.” Sure, Ivy’s been abused by all this, but so has Vee.
And for the final thing: I NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD FORGIVE HER. And I’m quite annoyed everyone seems to think that’s what I was saying. Clearly Ivy was allowing a chance for forgiveness by HANGING OUT WITH HER ALL AFTERNOON. She was being nice, smiling, actually enjoying herself, and when Vee shows up again, it’s like it never happened and Ivy’s back to being a jerk to her like everyone else expects her to be. To me, the whole afternoon is an attempt that yeah, I’d like to repair my relationship with you, and was mutual on both accounts. If Ivy didn’t want to try, she shouldn’t be giving her false hope like that. I don’t expect to change yours, or anyone’s mind, but don’t pull all this “But Ivy was so abused, she doesn’t have to take dealing with Verbena” when Verbena was abused too. You can’t point out one persons abuse just to ignore anothers.
I was just giving my opinion and giving a possible perspective on Ivy’s side, that’s all, I never said she was a saint or that Verbena was an absolute demon. In my eyes, both Ivy and Verbena were abused by their mom, and both sisters hurt each other at some point. I said that Verbena has difficulties expressing her feelings well, and that she may be impatient when things dont go resolved right away (obviously due to the abuse), maybe i should have been more specific. All I have been trying to say is you cant rebuild a long-time strained relationship in one day. I’m not good at explaining myself, I admit it.
We both have different opinions; I think Ivy has the right to kick her sister out, you think she is being selfish and that’s fine, agree to disagree. But I would like you not put words in my mouth that I never said, or to answer with anger because I misunderstood your first message.
Vee is being abused by their mother. Ivy is being abused by their mother AND VEE. Vee is a willing instrument of their mother’s abuse. Vee FOLLOWED Ivy to this vacation spot at their mother’s behest. Vee is reporting back to their mother about Ivy’s movements. Ivy is doing all she can to minimize the power that their mother has over both of them, but Vee keeps following Ivy and enabling their mother. Ivy has shown several times that she will happily embrace Vee so long as Vee is not actively enabling Vera’s bad behavior. Ivy wants their mother to stop playing favorites. Vee wants to be their mother’s the favorite. Their behavior is not comparable.
In my book, “Vee is not being herself here, she is trying to please her mother by spying [on] her sister” is utterly uncalled for since Vee is playing with open cards. She is being herself in spite of having been stuck with something she does not like and that’s pleasant to neither her nor Ivy. And she’s in a position with Vera where turning her down upfront would also have been bad (possibly not as bad as the fix she is in now, but she might have thought differently then). She isn’t even trying to be spying, actually.
You don’t have to accept someone’s apology, especially when they’re not giving one.
A peace offering really needs to be sustained, I think. It’s normal that emotions are not expressed rationally.
They didn’t talk about the difficult problems between them on that very pleasant day. Now they are talking about it and of course they are going to still be upset, if these problems go back far.
Hopefully now the issues are present in their minds and they could do better next time.
I agree that Aster and Vee talking would probably be useful.
IMO Vee was trying to offer a peace offering, albeit not a very good one. “Give me something to tell mom and I’ll be out of your hair.” She’s also very clearly drunk so smart thinking ain’t gonna be a top thing on her mind.
That’s not a peace offering? That’s “Let me help out mother in her continued abuse of the both of thus, and then I’ll let you go back to your plans.
Funny, I’m looking at it as the exact opposite. From Verbena’s POV, Ivy is the perfect child, the one who’s always had mom’s approval/attention/love – and she’s the one who cannot see past her own hurt to realize that being the “favorite” of an emotionally abusive parent is just as bad as being the unfavorite. And she reacts to Ivy telling her flat out “pretty much every time we interact, you do something awful” by… throwing a temper tantrum and doing something awful.
Honestly, I think Verbena would benefit most from having a long talk with Aster instead of Ivy or her mom.
Not even looking at Vee’s face, are you? That doesn’t seem like someone who’s ignoring it Ivy’s hurt.
Uh… while I’ve got some sympathy for V, she’s gonna need to tell her mom no and put in some effort managing her temper before I’d side with her over Ivy. Fixing a long running wound like this requires time and patience to build trust and she doesn’t appear to have the emotional stamina for that at the moment. Violently rage quitting is clearly a very established pattern for her and unless she’s willing to stand up to her mom and work on letting her feelings out in less destructive ways it doesn’t seem likely to change.
Did you not read the previous 2 strips?
Ivy is out for a pleasant evening with her partners. Vee drunkenly pushes herself in, admits to spying for their mother, and is holding her evening hostage with a “Give me dirt, and I’ll leave.” and you think *Ivy* is the one wrong in this situation?
What did Ivy say last strip last panel? “Give me a break”. it seems like more than she herself is willing to invest.
She was never required to give or invest anything.
Neither of them are wrong. And neither of them are right. Their mother is a narcissist and it’s wounded the both of them and pitted them against each other. Ivy can do no wrong in her mother’s eyes. She’s ‘perfect’. But Ivy feels she’s placed on a pedestal and is a prop more than a person when it comes to her mother. And honestly she’s not wrong.
Verbena is the black sheep. She’s not perfect. She’s not the good child. And so Verbena has to work for her mother’s affection. And her mother wants to control and spy on Ivy. And Verbena, having spent her **ENTIRE** life being put in Ivy’s shadows, and craving her mother’s approval, does as she’s told in hopes her mother will love her.
Ivy wants freedom. Verbena just wants love. But their mother just won’t let them be.
And in this moment, neither can see the other’s POV b/c their own is so deadset into one path in hopes of getting what they want. And it puts them at odds.
And I will say, Ivy doesn’t need to forgive, but she does need to come with an understanding of Vee’s actions. That Vee never wanted to be put against Ivy and to spy on her. That her mother forced her to in an attempt to win her mother’s love.
And Vee needs to see that Ivy never asked to be the golden child. It’s not Ivy’s fault that her mother loves Ivy more. And that Ivy never wanted her mother’s favor.
They’re both mad at the wrong person. They need to redirect that anger back at their mother and work on healing their relationship.
This, all of this, you said everything so much better than I ever could. Thank you!
Vee is wrong and Ivy isn’t. There are reason why they both act the way they do, but that is not the same not being wrong. Ivy wants privacy in her personal life (reasonable). To try to accomplish this she avoids the her mother and sister, who try to violate her privacy (reasonable). When one of them tries to force their way into a private situation she sets a boundary(reasonable). Vee wants their mother to love her(reasonable) more than she loves Ivy(unreasonable). To try to accomplish this she is willing to violate Ivy privacy(unreasonable and immoral). Ivy setting a reasonable boundary (don’t spy on me) and enforcing that boundary(by not letting Vee sit and listen to private conversations or offering up personal details of her life) hurts Vee’s feelings, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Ivy not trusting her Vee, who just announced that is is, in fact, continuing to report back to Vera on Ivy’s life is not unreasonable or immoral. Ivy is not denying Vera’s love to Vee by holding this boundary, and Ivy is not being unreasonable by shutting Vee out of emotional intimacy so long as she is reporting back to Vera. Given how many times Vee has violated Ivy’s right to privacy, it wouldn’t be wrong or unreasonable if she never spoke to Vee again. No one owes time or love to someone who is enabling abuse against them, even if the enabler is also being abused.
It doesn’t matter, who is right or wrong, I think. Nothing is lost if you allow your loved one to be upset and address what it is they are upset about. Being right and alone is not a good place to be. We would all have to kick ourselves out of our own lives, if we were defined as people, by a time when we were upset.
She should shut Vee out completely for not resisting the pressures of a narcissistic and (let’s be honest) borderline abusive parent? I totally agree Vee’s in the wrong here – but sheesh, I wouldn’t want to get on your bad side!
Her mother is trying to pressure her to spy, but she isn’t forcing her. Verbena is a grown woman. She could do what Abeille did and attempt to disengage from her mother. She could have turned down this ‘free’ vacation.
Abeille got support from Miel and his moms and asked for it, indirectly, by shutting Miel out and trying to do everything herself and blaming herself. Verbena is asking for help and has been doing so, indirectly by her conflicted behavior.
Verbena could have made better choices if she had been ready to, but she wasn’t.
A sister is precious, a friend is precious. If you banish someone because they were wrong or they offended you, you have your pride, I guess, but you no longer have that person. If you banish everyone and are alone with your pride, it’s a miserable existence.
The events that I think of as people having abandoned me, were partly because of me kicking them out of my life because they were upset and I got upset about them being upset.
Thinking about that now, if I won’t forgive people for being upset, I’m committing the same offense of being upset rather than paying attention to what they are upset about. By that logic, I’m wrong and should be banished.
There was a single event that was followed by me losing all of my friends (except a couple) and I n ever recovered. I have my pride, which does nothing for me, and I lost the world.
For the people calling Vee here wrong. I’m going to give you my story. I am the daughter of a narcissist. I have an older sister. My sister was the golden child. I was the black sheep. I was always at odds with my sister because my mom ALSO pitted us against each other.
“Oh Hanna. If you lost weight you’d be the prettier one”- said in front of my sister
“Hanna. Why can’t you be more social like your sister? You should go with her!” – Completely my mother trying to get information on my sister.
I’ve been in Vee’s shoes. And when your narcissist of a mother has made you work for her love from a young age, you’re basically indoctrinated. You don’t know HOW to go against it. So you go against who you can. My sister and I aren’t close. We don’t speak. Our mother poisoned us SO BADLY and pitted us against each other for years. And it wasn’t until I was nearly thirty before I realized I was angry at the wrong person.
My sister still hasn’t realized it. She’s still angry at me.
I still sometimes worry things were my fault when I know fully it wasn’t. And I had to run away to get that realization. But Vee has been so put under her mother’s thumb, so hoping for her love, she stays. And not everyone can see how toxic their situation is when they’re in it. If I did not find my friends, I’d have stayed. I’d never have married, moved out, and found my life.
Now has Vee done some TERRIBLE things? Yes. But in this argument, neither of them are right or wrong. They’re both suffering the effects of their narcissistic mother and that’s what this argument is. It’s them seeing the problem, but not knowing that their mother is the sole person to blame.
Also. Amber. I guarantee you that their Mom offered the vacation, let Vee get excited and start making plans. And then dropped the strings attached.
Honestly her mother is wanting ‘dirt’ on Ivy. Seems more she’s either using her as her personal soap opera, which according to Vee, isn’t a very interesting one-sans needing her eyes replaced that one time- or she’s just extremely controlling and wants to have something to lecture her about the next time she sees her.
I think both of them realize their Mom is the problem, but that’s just it…it’s easier for a sibling to squabble with their peer than it is for the person that’s been their authority figure their whole life. When you disagree with a sibling you’re far more likely to tell them off or fight, but if it’s a parent, who you’ve been conditioned to see as a higher authority and as a source of stability, it’s a lot harder to do that.
Verbena wants to enjoy her vacation as much as Ivy does, but even there she’s not outside her cone on influence because her mother literally paid for it. If the only way she can get her mother to do something nice for her is through the condition of doing her dirty work, I guess she figures she’ll take whatever she can get. Of course, Vera wasn’t really being nice in the first place, she just figured that vacation would be a time her guard would be down and the details of a weekend with two lovers would be super juicy I guess.
It was extremely sad when Vera called and Verbena started telling her about her own day and her mother just shuts her down because she doesn’t care whether Verbena’s enjoying herself or not. To Vee’s credit here, she’s been extremely transparent. She’s trying to show Ivy she just wants to have her sister back, and she’s citing the reason that’s difficult, that she doesn’t ‘get to have plans’ until she has something to bring back to her mother. Clearly both of them feel trapped here. Vera’s influence has trained Ivy to fear interactions with her sister, and it’s trained Verbena to resent Ivy because she wants to have a relationship with her mother, to be able to oh, I don’t know, talk to her mother about her day and to feel like she’s actually invested in the conversation. If it’s coming out of Verbena’s mouth and it doesn’t have to do with Ivy, Vera just brushes it off and that is…ridiculously sad.
I really hope Aster or Holly offer some outside perspective on this because otherwise they are never going to stop fighting and realize the only person they should be confronting is their shitty mom.
You’re too early, Foodbot! They’ve barely touched the first course!
Possible missed word in the third panel: “You just said you were spying me for mom” – should that be “You just said you were spying ON me for mom”?
It’s possible it’ll turn out she’s an alcoholic. She seems to mostly be a shitty person when drunk and she seems to spend a lot of on screen time drunk.
Not saying any of this behavior is excused or justified but it could be a nice story arc and pretty important.
She didn’t say she wanted to be best friends. She just wants her sister. That’s why she didn’t turn down the trip.